StreetCar workshop today.. 12/03/07

[Waterbuffalo]

At todays City of Vancouver Workshop, they had one hour of street car discussions with Matt Newsom, AIA and a few others.

Thought I'd pass it along. Looking for the workshop agenda item..

[Waterbuffalo]

Copy of agenda items: ( Link: http://www.cityofvancouver.us/councilmeetings.asp?menuid=10462&submenuID=10474&itemID=47265 )

Agenda - Vancouver City Council
Monday, December 03, 2007

Workshops (City Council Chambers)

4:00-5:00 p.m. AIA 150 – Vancouver Streetcar Symposium

Summary:

The Vancouver chapter of the American Institute of Architects (AIA) initiated a community livability and visioning dialogue to explore ideas for a streetcar system in Vancouver. AIA Vancouver chapter members will present findings developed from the recent feasibility study and planning symposium. (Thayer Rorabaugh, Transportation Manager, 487-7701)

[Chief]

Someone needs to get this group of Architects a set of directions on how to remove their heads from out their arses. I read the article about this in the morning paper, and it's clear that these boyz desperately need a cluepon abbout the odds of paying anything for their streetcar idea.

These guys no doubt have plans for restoring ferry service between Jantzen Beach and Vancouver for when the Interstate Bridges fall into the River...

[Waterbuffalo]

You haven't pulled out your Clue-by-four from Walmart?

[Chief]

That's a good one...!!

;D

[tefen]

I have to admit, I was shocked that they were still pressing this forward, and that it got a 60 minute session in front of council. I haven't read the paper yet, and I haven't watched the tapes, so I don't know how it went. But seeing the agenda makes me regret that I didn't go to the meeting last night to see for myself.

[Chief]

The story in the paper reads like something out of a Lewis Carrol story, this streetcar group is that clueless...

[tefen]

The Article:

http://columbian.com/news/localNews/2007/12/12042007_Citys-future-may-ride-on-streetcars.cfm

"We think this is prime time," Willson said. "We think it is key to our future."


I'm pretty shocked.

One option which was touted at the workshop back in October was to design the Boise Cascade development with the intention of Streetcar at some later date. Keep the area clear of overhead lines, make streets wide enough, run sewer outside of where tracks would be placed, etc. I think that should be the extent of the Streetcar talk for now.

Streetcar of Dreams they should call it, apparently the thought is "if you build it, they will come."

Personally, I'm excited for the Boise Cascade development. I think a quick survey of the restaurants along the waterfront (Joe's, Who-Songs, McMenamins and Beaches) will quickly prove that there's a market there (Quay never seems to be busy though, I'm going to blame it on the lack of outdoor seating and the "formal" atmosphere). The intention to continue the public waterfront through the Boise Cascade property is perfect. I'll even go so far as to say that streetcar might work at some point in the future, but right now there is no need. Who the heck is going to ride this train? Residents of downtown? Commuters? Tourists?

[Chief]

Let's review the bidding about Boise, shall we??

** Tefen, you are the map-master here; go find a map that shows Boise, Terminal 1 and the Quay, and overlap the proposed Alternative from the Columbia Crossing Group over it, and show me what you get.

** Last I heard, Gramor wanted $12-$14 Million from the City of Vancouver, just to build the access tunnels into the site, and still had a $20 Million unfunded deficit. that's why they delayed closing till this month. I still haven't heard a peep about their proposed changes to the financing, have you??

** It would be great to have those kind of amenities tefen, but how would you propose we pay for that, and the Columbia Crossing project too??

Let's get real here, and start talking about figuring the odds of ever seeing the kind of injection of public money that these projects require.

[karma]

I just can't get over how backwards this place is going??

[Waterbuffalo]

Come on over Karma.. Your going to be one of the members along with your DH soon enough? :-)

To Chief, would the City of Vancouver come up with an idea to stick the street car on the bridge over to Jantzen Beach instead of LR?

[Chief]

What?? Think about that question for a moment...

[tefen]

Not sure I get your point, Chief.

The new bridge would cut through the Quay, but I doubt it would even touch the Boise Cascade property. <a href="http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=45.622765,-122.676494&spn=0.005568,0.010042&t=h&z=17&om=1">satellite view</a>.

Which "amenities" are you speaking of? I believe that Gramor should develop this thing on their own, if they need assistance they shouldn't be in the game, or they should be looking to sell parcels of the property to other developers.

[Chief]

That clarifies your point for me tefen...I agree as long as the City doesn't have to cough up a dime for it.

[Waterbuffalo]

Chief: One way or the other, all taxpayers are going to pay for the bridge or streetcar in some form?

[tefen]

Watching the video now and making notes as I go along.... (If this isn't appropriate here, feel free to move or remove.)

10 ways street cars can be used, some are:
"Encouraging mixed use development"
"Streetcars are really more about making an city walkable, versus an actual transportation like project." (that one's gold)
"Preserves urban centers"
"Varies transporation options, diminishes reliance on automobiles."
"Build vibrant, public places"

Matt Ransom mentioned that City staff has worked on this for months. AIA says it was great working with City staff, they were always available.

"We chose streetcars [to study] because it could act as a catalyst for other discussions."

VCCV Transportation Strategy: "At least 20% of in/out of downtown must be from other modes"

Developments:
--Waterfront
--Library
--Main Street Retail
--Transit Mall Relocation
--Freeway Cap

"Private Sector Initiatives are making urban living without an auto more viable" (So then the private sector should finance this?)

"Streetcars become a catalyst for development." "Streetcars used as a development tool to bring people into an area." "When used smartly, you can plan your development around where you want your densities through a small streetcar loop." "Streetcars support existing businesses."

Questions to symposium:
Ready for streetcar? Yes: Growth here, city good with planning, aging population, growth. No: Suburban mindset, private/political champions, downtown density. "Once ... streetcar is in that planning process that gives confidence to developers."

Vision? Coordinating stops with other transportation, tying community together, long service and frequent stops, shares same streets, vibrancy.

Opportunities? Library, VA, retail, clark, business, future grocery.

Criteria? right size don't go too deep/too big, cost benefits, where do we want development, return on development

Connect? Transit, elderly/young destinations, parking rich with parking poor.

Obstacles? Lack of info, misconceptions, no private/political champion

Strengths? confidence in leadership, success with Esther Short, influx of people looking for these amenities, CRC forces discussion around transit

Opportunites? Diverse options for transit, encourage Van to be destinations, supports AIA livable community principals.

Leverage? Waterfront development, maximizing use of existing right of way.

Route Options:
1) Waterfront, downtown, to Amtrack
2) Loop around downtown, Amtrack etc...
3) Waterfront to N Main and Amtrack
4) Waterfront, downtown, Reserve, Clark College, N Main
etc...

Sythesis route: Amtrack, Waterfront, downtown, reserve, Clark, Uptown Village and back to Waterfront. Figure 8 shape.

Could there be a streetcar in Vancouver? It takes Heat, Streets and Leadership. --Charlie Hales

Heat: Real Estate is there, development is emerging, waterfront is a real project. Streets: Existing right of ways.... Leadership: Vision for future, and commitment to sustainable communities.

The right time to leverage waterfront, and streetcars are key to our future.

Council Comments:

Pollard: We've got to consider the future. The council hasn't committed to anything. Federal Money? Ransom: Small Smarts. Smaller systems, small levels of funding. Streetcars eligible. 50/50%.

Tonkovich: permanence of the tracks and what that represents to developers. Signifies an investment in an area. Overall Cost for 3 miles? Portland $120M for initial route, netted $2B in development. 3 times longer.

Tonkovich: We must facilitate something to get people into and out of Boise site.

Jollota: Difference between LRT and SC? SC can go on city street. LRT is separate, 1 mile or more between stops, for moving great distances at speed. SC are people movers and go just blocks between stops. SC 3 to 4 times more expensive than LRT.

Leavitt: Streetcar popular in Portland. Many demographic using streetcar. ROE is important. $38M per mile for SC. $120M for 3 Mile SC loop. We've got a lot on our plate with LRT and CRC.

Stewart: Good for communities to look at a variety of ideas. SC in Portland had a different basis with federal funding. We're talking about LRT right now. Local share is still half of a lot of money. When that's done that's still a lot of taxation that must occur.

Smith: Admiration of Portland use of SC and LRT. Cost/Benefit and security are important. Accommodate levels of density in Boise Cascade, must consider transit options.

Harris: Missed trip to Portland. Different transit opportunities for different part of city. Streetcars seem to be easy. San Fran experience.




Boise Cascade topic -- Eric Holmes:

Port Rail Project: construction contract awarded today, 12/4 construction through October 2008.

City transportation infrastructure:
Phase 1:
Esther Street Tunnel, Grand Street Tunnel, 6th Street Connector, Jefferson Connector. Closing at grade crossings. Relocate sewer main.
Design underway.

Phase 2:
4th arterial to Mill Plain through Kauffman/Jefferson

Window of opportunity for city improvements during Burlington Northern work. Any other time creates friction with BNSF.

Construction of City improvements from August 2008 - 2010. Private contribution 21%.
Cost: $38M to $62M. $62M includes onsite roadway, waterfront trail, and arterial to Mill Plain.

Reliable numbers of City cost by April 2008.

Stewart: does Port of Vancouver benefit from expansion to the railroad?

Approach to funding $38M of City improvements. Developer $8M, BNSF/WSDOT $1.7M, Grants $5M, City contribution $9.5M, gap of $13.8M

Smith: numbers are "loose" and could get bigger with negotiations with developer. Response: communication with developer pretty firm. We're working on how to close the gap.

Closing Gap:
Local Improvement District, Traffic Impact Fees, State and Fed money (lack of proportionality in BNSF contribution to benefit), tax credits to developer, additional BNSF/WSDOT contribution due to disproportionality, other legislation (catch-all).

Stewart: where is the port contribution? Response: port is paying for phase 1a and 1b ... (?)

Leavitt: Why is it the city's responsibility to find funds for the gap, why is it not the developers? Response: This is to extend city downtown. Pollard: It's in the best interest of all above to find money to cover the gap and they're working with us, but we're leading the parade. We're the logical ones to lead if you're going to go to congress or the state.

Smith: More than one grant for the $5M? Response: Correct. Phasing the project can hit more than one grant cycle.

We need a council decision by spring 2008 to take action.

Harris: Local Improvement District. How does it work? Who puts it together? Vote? Response: Single Property Owner or other. We don't want to over burden emerging areas for this. (No real answer)

Pollard: Looking for pots of money. Safety is an issue here.



Waterfront park & Renaissance Trail: Opportunity for world class waterfront and recreation area. Developer led, joint city/developer design. Must be 30% designed by early 2008 for shoreline permit through city office. Community gets strong voice. Waterfront and trail to be publicly owned. Developer may be seeking a high level of amenities and maintenance than the city can provide. $1M for waterfront trail. Additional public space along waterfront. Grant from CTED (?) to get experts on public spaces.

Stewart: Cost? Response: "We don't know what that would be." Stewart: "Public access to the waterfront. We've been told the whole length..." Response: positive towards that statement.

Harris: I want this nice waterfront, but I want something the city can afford to maintain. Response: baseline the city can afford, advanced the developer assumes responsibility or community assumes responsibility. To be negotiated.



Gramor has not closed on site. Anticipated mid-December, holdup with finite details with gramor, boise and port. Moving forward. Close before end of year. Long term lease on port poperty east of site, possible purchase of city property south of berm.

Density: residential: 3.1 to 4.8 sqft. More than all the new development in downtown in the last 10 years.


Stewart: City pays $9.5 and is looking for $13.8.... so we're looking for $23.3M? Response: I'm not insinuating that the money come from the general fund. We're looking for a more create approach than that.

[Waterbuffalo]

Thanks for the notes tefen..

[Chief]

Excellent synopsis tefen. As always, this comes down to a matter of money, and lots of it. I'm encouraged at the questions Council is asking, and will continue to monitor this as time goes on. there are still an awful lot of unanswered questions.

"Streetcars are really more about making an city walkable, versus an actual transportation like project."

yah...that's a good one. I would dearly love to have been able to dissect that one live, and find out exactly what that is supposed to mean...