Building a new interstate corridor...

[Waterbuffalo]

Got to thinking tonight about several things including this subject.

What would one think if we built a new North and South Bound interstate from I-205 into the East and head farther north along Cascade FootHills into Cowlitz or Lewis counties.

Two of the red flags that came for me immediately were the lewis, cowlitz and toutle river basins. Along with Mount Saint Helens..

What do all of you think about the subject?

[ceiliazul]

Battleground is ready for a freeway spur, but they're blowing all their capital on a new 219th offramp.

Other than that, what populated areas are far enough from the current I-5 corridor to warrant new highway development?

-john

[Waterbuffalo]

One of the reasons I was considering it up to Lewis County is to help provide a second, "safe" alternative crossing to the rain prone, flood across the Chehalis River.

Would give a second route across Southwest Washington to move freight or goods in case of a problem with BNSF Rail has a problem. (no, they do not have a problem now, but why not have a way to make sure?

To help with car traffic that is expected to increase significantly. No, AMTRAK IS NOT GOING TO BE A TOTAL ANSWER (coming from a regular amtrak to Bellingham rider...) and the airspace between PDX and Seattle is all ready busy with international flights, why dump a bunch of commuters on puddle jumpers, when its going to be increasingly apparent to even state goverment that we need to put a new interstate or traveling corridor north?

There is going to be huge resistance from tribes, environmentalists, and many other significant factors. But it is time to start considering a 50 year goal bettering our transportation corridors.

Look how much traffic is now on SR-500? I expect there will be a new crossing near Ridgefield to the West across the Columbia that runs across Ridgefield NWR and Columbia River area that are environmentally sensitive.

@Ceilazul - I'm thinking ahead of Battle Ground's need. BG is not going to be that small, farm store with the amount of building that is coming its way. I expect that its probably smart now to get a corridor ready and planning stages in case its needed.

Look at how Seattle has grown in its East corridors? Look at how Issaquah and many other east side communities are growing as examples?

[ceiliazul]

An Intra-metropolitan bypass makes sense, like our I-205. An Inter-metro link is another ballgame. Even some big East Coast cities only have 1 major connector. (and a toll road, at that.)

If you moved here from CA, you're used to medium sized communities covering the map and wide valleys to encourage growth. By contrast, WA has steep-sided valleys and concentrated populations in those valleys. It is a different pattern of growth.

I follow the boy scout motto, "be prepared", but it is hard to justify a 200-mile interstate through unpopulated mountainous terrain. I hear your thoughts, but I think I-5 will continue to be the only route, at least between Woodland and Tumwater.

[Chief]

Let's try another approach: tell me how you would raise the Billions you'd need to do anything like this...

Anyone??

Beuller?? Beuller?

[Waterbuffalo]

:-) <Yells Chief in the Echo Chamber.. Ferris and the teacher are over -> You might want to call Ben Stein on the phone and have a long chat with him on the duties of foreign policy and the bush administration while ceiliazul and I talk the basics out.. mrgrn

Yeah, that is one part of the analysis Chief. I was just getting the idea started, that would be part of any project as well. Just trying to put the bug in the ear but not getting fully, started on the heavy lifting analysis and paralysis that will become part of the problem.

I doubt this bi-way will ever come to pass, because it would run really close to an active, mountain, mt. st. helens. Along with the flooding river (chehalis) it probably would be near impossible to get done.

To ceiliazul, You have some wonderful points, Most of Oregon and Washington from Redmond North along the westside of the Cascades and Sierra Nevada from Medford to Vancouver BC towns are built in bowls or pocket depressions and river valleys that are created by plates being pushed up? (I think my basic science and thought is here and correct.)

So in these bowls are access to fresh water, buildable lands, soil to raise crops and the closer to the interstate they are, the more people are going to be attacted to move there.

Look at where the Interstates and highways are in our area in the Portland-Vancouver metropolitan area. Guess where people are moving to?

The only reason that Tumwater-Lacey, Chehalis, Centralia, Vader, Rider, Onalaska and some other areas are that they used to be dependant timber, mining and gravel towns. Plus you add in some of them are near an active volcano, river flooding that is near as big in size as the old Columbia River upstream of the Vancouver-Portland area near Camas, you can why these towns are coming out of a twilighted area and moving to other economic schemes to survive.

Any river that navigable or can be used, is turned into port jobs, Kalama, and Kelso-Longview Ports are great examples of turning around their ports and creating wonderful jobs. Chehalis tribe created a waterslide and theme park with a hotel, etc.

Now how does this become an important thing?

I do believe that up north of us, is going to see more and more growth of residents in its area.. How do I know this? I have traveled up and down the Interstate 5 corridor from Blaine (where it connects into Peach Arch and Canada to Sacramento area)

I remember when there were little bits of traffic and now its just massive amounts going from Portland to Seattle right through this area. Plus the Interstate up there vary rarely gets buried under snow or other problems.

Along with all of this, comes all of the Port traffic that will be using not rails but truck traffic, stuff that comes from Eugene or California but has to be dropped off in Kent or the Duwamish Region of Seattle. The truck traffic alone probably could be enough pressure to make sure that a new Chehalis river bridge is built.

What I'm really suggesting is a start and planning for a new corridor. One that will help move cargo and freight up the corridor and be a viable alternative to the Interstate up in that area that is growing, along with the Seattle Metro area that is growing by leaps and bounds more than the Portland Metro area.

ceiliazul, I'd suggest looking at the Highway 520 corridor? How many people are moving into that area? A lot of them are going to probably or eventually come to Portland in some form.

And there is not enough trackage between Olympia to Portland on Amtrak to carry all of these people.

So what is the next answer?

[Chief]

As I said, it's always about the money...

cewl

[ceiliazul]

You're right about traffic, and you're right about flooding dangers. Unfortunately Chief is right about dollars. Here's what will happen as we grow:

1) add more lanes.

2) add more tracks.

...there just isn't another easy route between these cities. If you don't believe me, take a look at Google maps "terrain" feature.

http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/8027/cascadiapy9.th.jpg (http://img391.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cascadiapy9.jpg)

There is no answer between Vancouver and Longview. North of Centralia there is Hwy 507 around Olympia and Tacoma, which will likely join the interstate system if the system does not collapse under the weight of already existing existing maint costs.

[ceiliazul]

Found a cool map of Population Density of WA. Posted in New Thread (http://www.clarkblog.org/vBulletin/showthread.php?p=11380#post11380).

[Chief]

We found out the hard way during the flooding last winter that the fastest way around Centrailia was a detour over 400 miles long...

You have to consider the terrain when you are planning freeways. In order to go through the mountainous areas, you need bridges, and that means even more money.

Those existing lanes and tracks are there now because that was the easiest, flattest, and least expensive place to put them. Go East or West of that route and you are into the foothills at least...

[Waterbuffalo]

Yes, Chief. The Chehalis River flood is going to be one of the things that has to be overcome by either this new interstate or bi-way or has to be overcome by the inadequate duct, diking and Interstate 5 crossing that is not ok atm? Remember, they're still just barely fixing it and putting up bandaids on the area.

Also Both Interstate 5 and this new interstate corridor, will have to get past the Mount Saint Helens active volcano. Its in the same corridor or nearby area that would hold a second corridor. This active volcano would in any essence would kill any new building of a corridor east or west of Interstate 5.

Now I can hear you on your problem with the corridor having a bunch of bridges and hills-ranges would be another reason. Its noted and understood. I'm not looking for the cheap solution here. I feel that some time in the future, there is going to be a need for this whether it is cheap or not.

Ceiliazul made a wonderful point that there is no good justification for light rail. But there might be justification for another Interstate or freight corridor.

[Waterbuffalo]

I'm wondering if there is a way to get traffic counts off the Interstate? Like Olympia to Clark County?

[Waterbuffalo]

I'd like to also add the Puyallup partnership is building a new terminal with rail capacity and the Seattle Ports along with our ports are seeing increasing traffic? Would this not add to bringing in more truck traffic even minimally that would add for a need for this corridor?