High TIF fees

[3 cks woody]

As some of you may know Clark County has some of the highest TIF (traffic impact fees) in the state. I would like some suggestions from forum users on your ideas on how you would reduce these costs?

Here are some cost comparisons in the state. These TIF rates listed are for a Single Family Residence. The TIF rates for commercial are sky high.
Clark County $4151
King Co. $1728
Kitsap Co $582
Pierce Co. $1660
Snohomish Co.$2478
Vancouver $2032

Thanks,
3 Cks Woody

[Waterbuffalo]

:-) Traffic impact fees? Great subject.

How does one reduce them? I doubt there is going to be any serious reduction on those fees.

Because of how Vancouver, Clark County and unincorporated are growing and the more limited ways the local politicians have to raise the needed funds to pay for such infrastructure, sadly, this is one of them they're using.

One of my ideas would be to start cutting back on trips to the grocery store, bus rides to school and other traffic congestion measures that would cut the amount of streets, maintenance and uses. If some how you could cut down on the amount of vehicle usage, you might be able to effectively cut those fees down to reasonableness.

[3 cks woody]

Hmmm

If I were to get people to cut down on their trips, how would I do that. One thing that comes to mind is If I let
LOS (level of service) go down close to failure levels it may make people want to start using Bus transit. This would require the County to change there views on concurrency in reguards to LOS.

I will tell you that I am in favor of BRT (Bus Rapid Transit).

3 Cks Woody

[Waterbuffalo]

That is one way to do it.. Its called concurrency.. Vancouver and Clark County just lower the speed bump limit until your going through intersections in a crawl fashion.

With the more urban densification that is coming to our community (which includes your wonderful area to the north.) Concurrency issues will be a part of what the current Board of Clark County commissioners will have to decide for not just Battle Ground, Camas, Ridgefield, Washougal, South Woodland and Vancouver.

Then within those cities (not unincorporated Clark County) you will find they're looking at LOS or loss of service or level of service...) within their own transportation departments and how to fund the much needed street improvements and densification projects.

Now your original point you were asking was how to lower the cost of TIF? Putting people into buses, light rail, car pool vans or trip reduction are a few ways. I bet there is a bunch more ideas out there.

[Waterbuffalo]

Just going to google and pulling up Pierce County (think Belleve and Seattle's Eastern side) So its very applicable to city and county size to our own plus a huge metropolitan area next to it.

Here is what they discuss for their TIF fee:

http://www.co.pierce.wa.us/pc/abtus/ourorg/pwu/tpp/tif.htm

Impact fees are charges on new development to pay for capital improvements (such as parks, schools, roads, etc.) that are needed due to the new development.

Traffic impact fees are collected to improve the transportation system to accommodate the higher travel demand added by new development.

The Revised Code of Washington (RCW 82.02.050) defines traffic impact fee programs as intended to:

* ensure that adequate facilities are available to serve new growth;
* establish standards by which new growth and development pay a proportionate share of the cost of new facilities needed to serve new growth and development;
* and ensure that impact fees are imposed through established procedures and criteria so that specific developments do not pay arbitrary fees or duplicative fees for the same impact.

There is a lot more information on that site if people are interested. Because this fee impacts growth, transportation and a long list of things.

[Chief]

But in reality what happens is that Cities like Vancouver hand out exemptions to these fees to favored developers; in fact it appears that many of the fees are created just so that Cities can hand out exemptions like Christmas presents.

As for density, up on this end of Cascade Park, there are thousands of fairly large houses, set on fairly large lots in the neighborhoods. The only way to increase the "density" would be to raze entire neighborhoods, re-survey the land, and double the number of homes. I have neighbors here that have such a large backyard, you could comfortably build another house...

BRT and it's fixed guideways may make sense in some narrowly defined corridors, but I don't see a high enough demand on the current bus system to warrant anything further than what is already being done.

A good example of a decent way tho handle bus traffic is up at the Fisher's Landing Transit Center. There are entrances and exits assigned to buses only, and a dedicated traffic light and turn lane off of 164th to let the buses have priority getting across traffic and into the TC. In addition, there is a dedicated and marked bus only acceleration lane so that the buses can get directly on to SR-14 smoothly.

Now that is a level of BRT that I can and do support. We don't need to waste money on a dedicated "bus only" lane on SR-14 because the cost per passenger is simply too high. On a case by case basis, I would agree to upgrading things around the Transit Centers that will increase bus traffic in a reasonable way.

In any case, I want to know precisely what is to be built, precisely how much it will cost, and precisely how we will pay for it.

Excellent post!

[Waterbuffalo]

<..Bumps over the usual susceptible posts..>

A good and mighty suggestion, is to contact your local and county officials and fight out why they're so high three creeks woody?

There might be a process, foundation and reason for such moves. I only know what has been presented through the past two years from the Board of Clark County commissioner and city of Vancouver discussions..

The TIF funding is part of a package to make development pay for the basic structures that it impacts: schools, roads, transit, development and probably other uses that are not listed.

Now each city, unincorporated areas and dirt path is going to treat this subject in the same logical form or has the same needs.

One of the issues I just realized and remembered from watching and attending the Board of Clark County commissioners meeting a year ago when this subject was brought up in session was how was development going to pay for the needed infrastructure?

This is one that has been added to impact the growth of folks coming into the community and make them pay for the uses of the community that their increased numbers bring.

As Clark County continues to grow, the cinch of the growth is going to put increasing pressure on the very basic things that in the Pacific Northwest treasure.

Personally, I have a feeling the only way one is going to have a TIF or any other fee go down is if the citizens of our county demand it. Which is extremely rare from my memory.

[Chief]

WB, if traffic Impact Fees are so adequate here in the County, then why do we have such an ongoing mess up in Salmon Creek?? All we got out of those TIFs were a couple of building moratoriums before the County Commissioners folded.

cewl

[3 cks woody]

Thanks for all of the replies,

I do have a couple of reasons for interest in this subject.
One is is that, I do own mixed use property in the north end of the UGB. My property is in the Mt. Vista TIF District.
The last year the fees basically doubled. Mt Vista has one the highest TIFs in the County. There are a lot of infrastructure improvements needed in the area to make it function with the purposed growth. If a fast food restaurant were to come to my area it would pay about 400,000 in impact fees, now a big chain maybe could afford these fees. Fast food drive thru's have a very high traffic count so they are on among the highest in TIF for restaurants. However if I wanted to build a sit down restaurant( not a chain). I may have some difficulty getting the project to pencil out from a ROI stand point for the restaurant owner. You can only charge so much for a steak, and if the lease is so high because all of the associated costs, maybe you can't make the profit you need, why put your business on my property.

When I was testifying at the TIF update, Commissioner Morris's comments to me were " You wouldn't have to pay that high of a fee if you had a good revitalization factor."
Of course nobody told me how much I could save or who would decide if I had a good revitalization factor.

The other reason I am requesting input on this issue is that I am involved with a group that will be making some recommendation's to the BOCC on the Three Creeks area.

Fees are only a small part of the issues in the development of the area. As a person who has an aging parent and teenage children who live in Clark County, I have a great desire to do what I can do to make sure that our County is economically viable for the future.

Thanks,
3 Cks Woody

[3 cks woody]

Oops

I guess I spoke too soon about the reduction of TIF in regards to the revitalization factor and Business development reductions. I just received a PDF on my e-mail from County staff that gives me the % of discounts.

3 Crks Woody

[Waterbuffalo]

I have watched with interest your area around the Salmon Creek area to the northeast of Washington State University Vancouver, Legacy Hospital, a lot of medical offices and other small development.

One of the reasons I saw for the higher TIF's is that this area is in one of the highest concentrated areas of highway interchanges (Interstate 5, 205) Highway 99 comes right into this area plus you have a bunch of stalled development plans that are just waiting and foaming at the bit.

Mount Vista and North Orchards to the east of these three interchanges is probably one of the most desired development lands for industrial, commuters, business and many other interested parties?

Look at all the new business buildings in Ridgefield? Has any one else noticed the applications for new businesses serving Portland?

Three Creeks Woody, your in one of the most desired areas for the connections to both the east and west side of Portland. You may be able to get some type of exemption for a special business like a sit down restaurant which Salmon Creek and North Central County areas are desiring with Blood written all over their faces.

This may be one of the few exemptions that I can think of that may be allowed because of the desire and need, if this is what is needed in the area, government is going to bend over backwards to accommodate a business who wants to do it, even with economic party favors.

Now to sum things up: Exemptions, control and concurrency of traffic, development costs and how does transit fit into the densification?

(PS. You beat me to an answer while I was writing it. :-)

[Waterbuffalo]

Can you share with us what you found?

[3 cks woody]

I will as soon as figure out how to put the attachments on.

[3 cks woody]

Waterbuffalo, The files are too beig to be posted. If you would like them you could P.M. with your e-mail and I could forward them to you. I will be on vacation next week. So it could be after next week to get the info.

3 Cks Woody

[Chief]

Woody, please log in & check your PM's...