Boise Cascade: If the City wants to do it, then do it right: $100 Million Bond

[Chief]

I am hearing all kinds of rumblings and schemes from various sources about how to finangle more money to build access to the former Boise Cascade site. Right now the City has their fingers crossed that the Federal and State Gubments will come through with enough grant money to cover the City's share of the underpasses at Ester and Grant Streets, but that still leaves an enormous unfunded gap in the project.

The City of Vancouver has done everything they can to force this project, including absorbing the cost of demolition of the old mill (illegally as it turned out, as they had no permit), to fencing it off, and trying to get other parties to pay even more of the cost than they already are.

The Port of Vancouver has been the unsung lead agency in all of this, as they took responsibility for planning the underpasses as part of the West Vancouver Freight Access Project (WVFAP). Once complete, there will be two "rough openings" in the BNSF railroad berm, but they will be far from usable in that form. The current run is about who will pay to turn those rough openings into finished underpasses, and at what cost.

To put my problems with Boise in perspective, I have monitored the progress of the new development at the site of the old Evergreen Airport up here in Cascade Park. the City of Vancouver has paid out no tax dollars for this Project at all, because the development is not eligible, and tax money is not needed in order to make the Project viable.

In fact, the Evergreen Airport project was recently scaled back severely and the significant condominium portion was pretty much eliminated all together because of the collapse of the condo markets. Construction on the retail portions of the project are getting underway as soon as the Contractor finishes the demolition of the old hangars.

Notice I said the Contractor is performing the demolition, NOT the City of Vancouver; a significant difference between Evergreen and Boise.

If the project at the site of the former Boise Cascade mill is such a hot idea, then Gramor Development would not need so much "investment" of tax money to make the project viable.

Neither would there be so much whining coming from the City of Vancouver and the project offices, about what evil bastards the BNSF railroad is because they won't pick up more of the tab.

Another talking point that is emergin seems to be "blame BNSF for the wounds they are inflicting on Vancouver", and "How horrible it is that BNSF is cutting us off from our waterfront".

It should be of no surprize to anyone that any railroad guards their right of way jealously, and that the only thing the railroads care about is not interfering with all of those trains running on schedule.

BNSF worked with the Port of Vancouver on the WVFAP, because it was in the railroad's interests to remove the blockage at the Vancouver junction. Access to the Boise site was a secondary consideration, and the railroad has no financial responsibility for those new underpasses at all.

Again, none of this should be a surprise to anyone, and badmouthing the railroad is less than productive.

If the City of Vancouver is so absolutely convinced that this project is the way for the City to go, then they should stop beating around the bush pursuing rumored grants that will likley never materialize in the amounts they need, and put a $100 Million Dollar Bond measure in front of the voters.

I think that is a more realistic amount for what they really need,. Even though the Council will only talk about the underpasses and street reconfigurations right now, once they have access, they will need even more money for the other goodies they will be on the hook for inside of the site.

If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right. Put a up a bond measure and get the money they really need, and if it is voted down as resoundingly as I think it would be, we could finally put this lunacy to rest once and for all.

In the meantime, real development continues in Cascade Park, uninhibited by any "assistance" from City Council...

8)

[Chief]

bttt for WB...

Is this what you mean, or some version of it??

[Waterbuffalo]

Deletes what do you mean comments...

Ahh, this would be a start Chief. You know this isn't a half bad and baked idea. Lets put up all the funding that's probably going to vote? What would scare the City of Vancouver more?

I'd bet they would fight tooth and nail to keep it out of the voters hands. But my idea was to look into some time of tax, use tax, development fee or special tax in that core area that would pay more of the Downtown area that will pay for the density "Upgrades" that are going to be needed in this area to make Light Rail or Bus Rapid Transit viable.

I think this bond should be directed toward paying for some of those things or transportation that are going to be needed down there or in that area to increase the density to make this CRC project part of the project according to their needs.

[Waterbuffalo]

Deletes and moves comments to other thread.

Yeah, I want to see them float that bond or tax increase via a vote. But how much do you think they're going to fight tooth and nail to ignore, castrate or remove it so that it never comes before the voters or find someone else's pocket to pay for that Billionaire's Dream?

[Chief]

Think about all of the spin you have heard about this project over the last year. Royce Pollard has promised billions of private investment, access to "our waterfront", "a new city", and who knows what all...if any of that were true, he wouldn't have to work so hard at it, would he?

I put this thread up in part because I was accused of having "a lack of vision" about this project recently. I think I have pretty good vision on this when it comes to the money, and how we pay for this "investment" by the City is the most important part of the whole scheme.

Again, if any project; whether it be Light Rail, or development at the Boise Cascade site, or a streetcar, or any private project is worth doing, then it should not require the investment of hundreds of millions of scarce tax dollars just to get it off the ground.

This is not a sewer project like Portland's "Big Pipe" where there is no alternative but to raise sewer and stormwater treatment fees to pay for the City of Portland cannot do without. The City of Vancouver will endure if Gramor Development falls flat on their face with Boise.

The harsh reality is that Boise will fail largely because of the City of Vancouver, and because of some of the irresponsible statements by the Mayor, and the many different ways this whole things has been squeezed and molded in an attempt to get it funded without asking the voters.

The same thing is happening to the Columbia Crossing project, and I think it is doomed to fail for very much the same or at least similar reasons.

[Chief]

bttt...just to renew my feelings on this subject. If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right...

cewl

[Waterbuffalo]

I shall make an addendum to your statement Chief:

Anything worth doing should be done right and brought through a process to the COMMUNITY with all the facts, figures, how its going to benefit the community with open meetings and discussions in multiple forums.

Would love seeing the Mayor speak all over the city about his dreams and these subjects along with associated city officials doing what Columbia River Crossing Project is doing.

How about a project website with open meetings that are not just being held at City hall but all over the city from 192nd Avenue to the Port of Vancouver?

[Chief]

Great points WB. This is another example (beside the Columbia Crossing Project) where Hissonor the Mayor has made promises all over town, primarily to his Business friends (and donors) in Identity Clark County.

ICC is who stands to benefit from this massive infusion of Public money. If Council will grow some 'nads, speak the truth, and put up a bond measure, we'll see just how much support this whole project really has.

How badly does Vancouver want access to "our waterfront"?? Are they willing to pay the price?

Is $100 Million enough??

Who really thinks that Vancouver can make their own version of Portland's Pearl district along with a cute little streetcar and a replica of Tom McCall Waterfront Park where that papermill used to be??

Does anyone really understand the difficulties involved here, and how expensive it will be to address them?

Do people realize that there will be trains in and out of the Port of Vancouver along that new siding almost 24/7 once it opens??

Sustainability! feh!!

cewl

[Waterbuffalo]

"Do people realize that there will be trains in and out of the Port of Vancouver along that new siding almost 24/7 once it opens??"

You have made some wonderful points including this one. Now I want to see what Columbia Waterfront LLC is up to the challenge if they can handle and juggle all the balls in this project?

Can someone show me where they did this? Victoria does have a railyard near Johnathon Nelson's piece. But what he does not understand is how many of that rail traffic on that line is actually International and National significance that is going to over ride this local billion dollar project?

The Railyard that sits next to Victoria BC is basically for local food stuff and other minor traffic on Vancouver island I suspect. How do I know? Living in the areas I have, you get to learn the feel of the community and how it operates. (Victoria used to have a lot of ferry traffic to Bellingham, Seattle and Vancouver BC. Which I know just as much as I know Portland.)

I've lived in Vancouver, Portland and other cities along Interstate 5 for most of my near 30+ Years, so I have a different perspective than the one sided horse blinders that seem to pervade some of the discussion I hear.

It also helps me to get around the apathy and smoke screens that are put up politically. Put up the smoke screen and I know right away, some thing is being being done to cover some thing up.

Honestly, who would in their right mind want to live near 24/7 Blowing horns from the river, rails and flight paths of planes above their heads? Who would want to live next to an active port? Major mall with all of its light pollution during the next 10 years at the same time the Vancouver Mall is going through the same expansion and redevelop ideas? New Interstate bridge that will block most of the view to the east and railroad bridge to the west will block the west view? What happens if the Port of Portland opens a new marine facility across the river from the Port of Vancouver?

I'd like to see these answered plus a lot more before I would sign off on this project. Chief and I disagree with the financial as it is a priority. Economics will find a way politically if they have to but the future generations who will have to live with the decision and decisions of this project are just unacceptible to me.

This may be one project that I may have to find some time and speak to the officials involved to find out more information. I've said a lot and want to get their side of the events and ideas going around.

[Chief]

My wife and I were discussing the train traffic in and out of the Port just last night.

Once the Port has the capacity to put a whole train together, you will have a string of five locomotives pulling up the grade past all of those condos, and could even end up idling at the intersection until the mainline was clear, and they could move out with a mile-long train.

Keep in mind that Gramor is talking about constructing a nice flat wall of smooth condominiums that will be separated from the railroad berm by the width of a street. All of the sound will reflect off of those buildings right into Downtown, and across toward Fruit Valley. Imagine the effect of blowing an air horn against that kind of reflecting surface....think people are bitching about the train noises now??

The other thing is the view for those Condos. On the first and second floors you will have a view of the berm wall. On the third floor you'll have a perfect view of railroad cars as they rumble back and forth, in and out of the Port of Vancouver around the clock, seven days a week, most holidays included. That's above and beyond the regular freight trains that rumble through on the mainline, as well as the East-West Amtrack trains.

yah...we can have sision for that site too WB...

I wonder why we haven't heard from your buddy Darch1 lately...I figured he would have weighed in to rebut me on the $100 Million figure by now.

The other question my wife had was, Is $100 Million Dollars enough? Is that all that the City will ultimately be on the hook for once all of the truth is known??

Still simmering....

[Waterbuffalo]

You've made some valid points Chief. Go into major city like New York and how much of the noise is reflected off their buildings?

And why would anyone want views of the Port of Vancouver, Port of Portland, Hayden Island Big Box chains, fruit valley, mount saint helens and hood will be blocked by buildings in the FAA flight path and the new Interstate 5 bridge.

Because Boise is also limited by the same factor of Pearson as the bridge is in its heighths, unless they get special permission to build higher from the federal aviation administration. (Also can be found and I heard during the Vancouver City Center Vision.)

If some looks at the pictures and slides that have been presented at local meetings of this development, you will see that the city or the next jump will be to redevelop areas down there on the north side of the berm. Its just a natural conduit to continue the big building once you start.

I'l grant that Esther Short Park is a fine piece of work that was put together and executed. The people of the city should be proud of it.

But why would anyone want to continue to pay to live in a continually noisy enviroment of trains? With WVFAP (spelling?) Amtrak is going to be running more trains up and down the Interstate 5 - Cascadian Foothills running from Eugene to Bellingham. They have second train run planned to run to Bellingham right now.

Vancouver has the 28 Empire Builder, Coast starlight, 4 Talgo trains from Eugene to Seattle and some on to Bellingham at night. From my OWN personal calculation at the Vancouver Amtrak station alone, there are 10 daily trains going by as just commuter or long distance trains.

With the State of Washington and Oregon wanting to pull more and more cars off Interstate 5 between Portland Seattle, do you think they might want to run even more regional and longer distance Amtrak trains? This is just a start folks.

And it all runs right by Boise Cascade along with Chief's comments about the BNSF's cargo trains from Seattle, Portland and Chicago area. One has to remember there are multiple active Ports along the I-5 rail corridor. Anyone here the Port of Kalama's rail ads on the local radio?

Guess how many trains that might add and where will they be running by?

[Chief]

*poink*

[Waterbuffalo]

Now we're on this retro ride back a six months or a year ago? :-)

Ok, lets get out the information.. Time to bump threads again?

Just looked at the dates of this thread. Weird, I thought this subject was near a year old or more?

[Chief]

Updating...

Last night City Council heard from Thayer Rohrbaugh, the Transportation Manager for the City of Vancouver, about a plan to take all existing street repair money, and devote it to re-routing the streets that lead into the Boise Cascade site.

At the same time, Rohrbaugh gave them a plan to impose a "street utility" tax on every homeonwer and business in the City of Vancouver, based upon the wear and tear they inflict on the streets.

Developing...

cewl

[DArch1]

My wife and I were discussing the train traffic in and out of the Port just last night.

Once the Port has the capacity to put a whole train together, you will have a string of five locomotives pulling up the grade past all of those condos, and could even end up idling at the intersection until the mainline was clear, and they could move out with a mile-long train.

Keep in mind that Gramor is talking about constructing a nice flat wall of smooth condominiums that will be separated from the railroad berm by the width of a street. All of the sound will reflect off of those buildings right into Downtown, and across toward Fruit Valley. Imagine the effect of blowing an air horn against that kind of reflecting surface....think people are bitching about the train noises now??

The other thing is the view for those Condos. On the first and second floors you will have a view of the berm wall. On the third floor you'll have a perfect view of railroad cars as they rumble back and forth, in and out of the Port of Vancouver around the clock, seven days a week, most holidays included. That's above and beyond the regular freight trains that rumble through on the mainline, as well as the East-West Amtrack trains.

yah...we can have sision for that site too WB...

I wonder why we haven't heard from your buddy Darch1 lately...I figured he would have weighed in to rebut me on the $100 Million figure by now.

The other question my wife had was, Is $100 Million Dollars enough? Is that all that the City will ultimately be on the hook for once all of the truth is known??

Still simmering....

Hey Chief Sunshine...so you miss me...I knew it.

OK, I'll bite on what I know. Let's start with the train and noise.

1. Yes, choo choo's do make noise and if up against a SOLID surface that very well could be a problem. The models I've seen as of late are solid mass models...probably just place holders for the incredibly cool stuff that will be coming. If I were say designing the project I would probably place parking decks and breeze ways up against the tracks with a vegetative buffer...possibly as high as 5 stories...heck maybe six. This would deaden the sound and give the condos value by being a story or so above the cars. Need to be above the choo choo. BTW, most major cities have trains running right thru them...fact of urban life. I would also look at orienting the buildings s to preserve view corridors thru the site...de-valued property to the north does no-one any good

2. $100 million. Maybe , I do not know. I'm sure the development agreement is being worked thru, until then all us armchair quarterbacks can speculate and complain all we want...facts will come out soon enough. I would caution you on hinging your anti-everything campaign on this tactic...what would happen if it came out the the development was going to carry the infrastructural financial load? Not sayin' just sayin'...mrgrn

[Chief]

Hey Chief Sunshine...so you miss me...I knew it.

OK, I'll bite on what I know. Let's start with the train and noise.

1. Yes, choo choo's do make noise and if up against a SOLID surface that very well could be a problem. The models I've seen as of late are solid mass models...probably just place holders for the incredibly cool stuff that will be coming. If I were say designing the project I would probably place parking decks and breeze ways up against the tracks with a vegetative buffer...possibly as high as 5 stories...heck maybe six. This would deaden the sound and give the condos value by being a story or so above the cars. Need to be above the choo choo. BTW, most major cities have trains running right thru them...fact of urban life. I would also look at orienting the buildings s to preserve view corridors thru the site...de-valued property to the north does no-one any good

2. $100 million. Maybe , I do not know. I'm sure the development agreement is being worked thru, until then all us armchair quarterbacks can speculate and complain all we want...facts will come out soon enough. I would caution you on hinging your anti-everything campaign on this tactic...what would happen if it came out the the development was going to carry the infrastructural financial load? Not sayin' just sayin'...mrgrn


Let's get something straight DArch. I am not anti-everything, and if you review my long standing positions on thiis project, my opposition to this project has been about the use of Public money that the City of Vancouver does not have, and does not have the means to raise. If you would participate in any of the other many threads we have here at Clarkblog.org, you will be surprised to see that I stand for a great number of things here in my Community.

If in fact Columbia Waterfont LLC can find a way to finance this fiasco all by themselves, and relieve the Public of spending money we do not have, they will have my complete support. They can make a good faith gesture to that end by coughing up the $40 Million Dollars or so that is needed for the underpasses for access to the site, before the BNSF construction window slams shut.

I have said since the beginning, that if this project is so economically viable, it would not require the infusion of massive amounts of taxpayer money. If the project can't stand on it's own two feet, then it deserves to fold. Unfortunately for you, the City of Vancouver is considering dismantling it's existing street repair program so they can redirect that money into construction costs at the Boise site. They are also considering imposing a new "street utility tax" on all homeowners and businesses in the City in order to cover the "investment" in Gramor's project. Those 2 half-baked ideas make me dig in my heels even harder.

But answer a question for me, would you??

The Evergreen Airport project out here in East Vancouver came to a screeching halt when the condominium market began to collapse, and the investors realized that building 2500 condominiums in this market was foolish. If that was true for the private investors at that project, why is the same thing not true for Gramor and their need for Public investors??

And finally, let's stop fooling around here, shall we? Referring to yourself as an "armchair quarterback" is disingenuous as we both know well. Keep in mind that I know who you are and where you work, and I tire of maintaining the charades here...

Just sayin...

ddrrii

[Chief]

One more point on this...

Are Gramor Development, Waterfront LLC, and the City of Vancouver completely clueless, and totally unaware that both the Federal Government and the State of Washington are in the midst of a major fiscal crisis??

Does it not bother Gramor that the only funding sources the City of Vancouver has been able to identify to date are questionable State and federal grant applications, along with suckering the Port of Vancouver into signing on for a measly $500K??

If that's all the better the City can do, aren't the few private investors in the project getting just a little bit nervous??

??

How about a few straight answers, DArch??

[Waterbuffalo]

"2. $100 million. Maybe , I do not know. I'm sure the development agreement is being worked thru, until then all us armchair quarterbacks can speculate and complain all we want...facts will come out soon enough. I would caution you on hinging your anti-everything campaign on this tactic...what would happen if it came out the the development was going to carry the infrastructural financial load? Not sayin' just sayin'..."

Ok, since I'm going to take things in opposite order here. This is Chief's main rub but not mine.

Calling us "armchair quarterbacks?" I like it. Though not enough of a dig to push my buttons. So give us the information that you think we're failing to see? If you think we're not getting some thing or not in the loop, what are we missing?

But please tell me, why your PR firm is not out in the community doing outreach speaking about this project as much as the Columbia River Crossing? Why do I not see them doing a bunch more meetings than ten on a billion and a quarter project?

One meeting speaking about a park? Where are the public meetings on the financing? Architecture? There are so many I could ask about. Let's start there.


"1. Yes, choo choo's do make noise and if up against a SOLID surface that very well could be a problem. The models I've seen as of late are solid mass models...probably just place holders for the incredibly cool stuff that will be coming. If I were say designing the project I would probably place parking decks and breeze ways up against the tracks with a vegetative buffer...possibly as high as 5 stories...heck maybe six. This would deaden the sound and give the condos value by being a story or so above the cars. Need to be above the choo choo. "

So Darch1, your saying that you would built parking structures five or six stories. Do you think that this city is going to allow you to build those type of edifices? Six stories high? Are they just going to be six stories high of concrete and reinforced block? Seen a bunch of these on the West Coast and in New York where I just traveled to.

With vegetation in the corridors and the breeze ways, this will eat up most of the noise pollution from the two active ports, a new columbia river crossing bridge that may bigger in size.

How are you going to get around those wonderful spire and cable system that will be blocking your wonderful view of Mount Hood, the upper columbia river gorge and airplanes flying into Portland Airport?

I'll agree with you that every major city has a certain amount of background noise of cars, screeching cars, rail yards and horns. When your moving millions of people and cars around a big, infilled and stacked skyline, your going to expect some of that. If people do not like that type of life, they should not live there.

How are you going to get people to buy condos in an area of this type? Can you give me some examples Please? I would love to know.

Since you have done your research well on both me, you would know that I like this side of it.


"BTW, most major cities have trains running right thru them...fact of urban life. I would also look at orienting the buildings s to preserve view corridors thru the site...de-valued property to the north does no-one any good.."


So you expect the Campbell family to develop their land to the north?

[DArch1]

Dang it's good to be back...man I love you guys.

Now, let's see...where to start.

OK. It is a tough time for the state of Washington and for Vancouver, in fact times are tough all over. There is a theory out there in business that stimulus is better than complacancy. As more and more community land is given over (purchased) to developers, the less control the community will have over what is built. Are you really wanting to totally give control over to development companies to design your city? The City needs a steak in the game to protect you and the future of this community. That tends to be open space and infrastructure.

Noise on rail line: Just sayin' Buff that if the Train is elevated on a concrete wall that externds 22-24 feet about grade then the train on top of that for another 15-20. About 80 trips a day currently and you have a wall of train 5 stories off the ground. Yah...lets put condo's there...

Arm Chair QB: Really now if you truly know who I am you will realise that there are far smarter people making these decisions than me. I have no influence whatsoever...and eally have no idea where this thing might go. Experience has tought me to make informed decisions...and as close as you think I am...I do not have enough info to even formulate an opinion. I do appreciate what you've done. Thanks.

[Waterbuffalo]

"OK. It is a tough time for the state of Washington and for Vancouver, in fact times are tough all over. There is a theory out there in business that stimulus is better than complacancy. As more and more community land is given over (purchased) to developers, the less control the community will have over what is built. Are you really wanting to totally give control over to development companies to design your city? The City needs a steak in the game to protect you and the future of this community. That tends to be open space and infrastructure."

And should the citizens of this community determine that instead of a few special interests?

This is a huge project by anyones standards. I am not discounting that. But there are so many concerns with a city budget that continues to seesaw between a debtors prison gang and a high flying jump.

Sorry, but the fake drunk routine your posting with at 3pm is not working on me Darch.

"Noise on rail line: Just sayin' Buff that if the Train is elevated on a concrete wall that externds 22-24 feet about grade then the train on top of that for another 15-20. About 80 trips a day currently and you have a wall of train 5 stories off the ground. Yah...lets put condo's there..."

If you use concrete walls Darch in the design, would that not reflect the noise to the north and west, creating an amplification and echoing effect on the user causing it? Even if you use some form of non-solid form like say a highway concrete wall, it only takes so much vibration before shunt the noise out on the surround business and community.

And your saying that your going to put some form of housing, condo and business structures above that that will have the views?

The noise is still going to get into the upper part in those buildings and floors. Do you think those people want to hear blaring train horns.

If I was smart man, I would go to the top of the Vancouver Hilton and take a good listen. Because then I would know exactly how these buildings are going to sound, if I have to listen to the noise from up there. I could also go up wind to the six story clark county Public service center, go up six floors to the top floor conference room and get the same noise estimates.

Also Darch, how are you going to block the noise Port of Portland's new Marine Terminal on Hayden Island? And all the new light pollution from the new redeveloped Jantzen Beach mall?

"Arm Chair QB: Really now if you truly know who I am you will realise that there are far smarter people making these decisions than me. I have no influence whatsoever...and eally have no idea where this thing might go. Experience has tought me to make informed decisions...and as close as you think I am...I do not have enough info to even formulate an opinion. I do appreciate what you've done. Thanks."

I copy and pasted this in exact verbatim including all of the spelling errors.

Yes, Darch, there might be smart people above you but would you have not been in the conversations on how this project and how its financing would come together. The civil engineering would impact your buildings? Where they would be putting roads, utilities, phone and fiber optic cables and how that would impact your buildings along with footprints and where you could or could not build?

And would you not know the budgetary amounts that would tell you how much you had to spend on your said buildings and designs? If you know all of this, you know more than most of the citizen's here in America's Vancouver.

You would know more details than a high fallootin number like one point three billion dollar development that is being pushed around the town.

[Chief]

Again, we already have a perfectly good City here in Vancouver, without tapping the taxpayers to pay for another one down on the Boise Cascade site.

I've tried time and again to find something positive about this project, and every rock I turn over has another big nasty centipede under it...

I hear a lot about "sustainability" in building practices and in the ways that Cities mange their business. Real sustainability starts with responsible use of the money that we taxpayers give the City to use for our common needs.

I see absolutely no benefit to me personally, as a homeowner, and a taxpayer, that would induce me to agree to a major tax increase to pay for this project. It really fries me that the City is discussing ways of diverting my street maintenance dollars into that project, and then trying to charge me a "Street Utility " tax to pay for the street repairs we should already have.

The reason I put this thread up about a $100 Million Bond Measure, is because that would be the honest way to go about financing this project. If it really is in the best interests of the City of Vancouver to get behind this project, then let's not do it in a half-assed manner. If the project needs that much money, then the City needs to ask the voters for it, up front, and in detail; and if the voters turn it down, then that is the end of it unless Gramor can come up with the private investors they need.

Forgive me for being a little gunshy these days about Government spending DArch, but we taxpayers just bought Fannie and Freddie, and there isn't going to be a lot of loose money hanging around for quite some time.

Any important project needs to be clear about the financing if it has any hope of winning public acceptance and support, and to date the Columbia Waterfront project has been anything but clear about the financial resources it really needs, or the incredibly tight construction window it has to meet.

[Waterbuffalo]

Watch this thread for the PDF coming soon. :8-)

http://www.clarkblog.org/vBulletin/showthread.php?p=12020#post12020

[Chief]

No, this is the one you want...

Street Utility Tax Presentation from the City of Spokane

http://www.clarkblog.org/vBulletin/showthread.php?t=2973

[Waterbuffalo]

Waterbuffalo waves at Darch1 as he sits on the thread at 9:15pm reading our comments to him and may be posting a reply. Would love to see what he has to say qualifying our comments.

Also would love to hear from Barry Cain, head of Gramor and a part of the Columbia Waterfront, LLC.

[Chief]

Somehow I think that DArch is more comfy posting catty drive-by comments than engaging in any kind of reasonable debate about where this project is going.

Look back over his comments, and you'll see that DArch has little use for the railroad either, perhaps because the Railroad knows how to play hardball with pushy developers who expect the railroad to pay for their projects too. When the railroad refused to play ball and kick in a significant amount of cash, the City of Vancouver stepped right up and agreed to try and finance their share along with what the Railroad refused. The big funding hole that Gramor has in this comes at least in part from the mistaken assumption that the BNSF Railroad would pay for any part of this development.

[Waterbuffalo]

Waves to Darch1 (again..) Seems he likes to sit on this thread while you and I are posting..

Come on Darch1 or someone from Gramor? Why are you scared to face your detractors publicly? Why is this project so much shushed in secrecy? Is there some huge conspiracy that I should know about?

If Chief or I have gotten it wrong, step up and prove us wrong instead of sending Royce or the Columbian after us. If this is all about just 1/10 or 1/11 of the amount of the money that he continues to tout to us as the amount of money put in by the private and public sectors to the amount of money gained at the end of it being built like the Hilton. Why cannot Gramor or the smaller investors find someone who has the money privately or a bank-financier who could help with it?

I know of a few banks that could direct you to someone who might be able to help you find that type of capital but I would also think you would have to pay landshark prices to get it. Just looking at the economy and the Federal Savings bank prices they're having to pay for buying notes and currency from the federal reserve is going up and up.

Ok, come on and speak, or forever hold your breath from us.

[Chief]

Time to reboot my original comments back up to the top...

The City of Vancouver's financial position is much worse now than when I first wrote this piece, and I think it's more important than ever to walk away from this madness on the waterfront. We don't have the money and we aren't likely to any time soon. Stop robbing the rest of the budget in order to pour money down this bottomless pit...

cewl

I am hearing all kinds of rumblings and schemes from various sources about how to finangle more money to build access to the former Boise Cascade site. Right now the City has their fingers crossed that the Federal and State Gubments will come through with enough grant money to cover the City's share of the underpasses at Ester and Grant Streets, but that still leaves an enormous unfunded gap in the project.

The City of Vancouver has done everything they can to force this project, including absorbing the cost of demolition of the old mill (illegally as it turned out, as they had no permit), to fencing it off, and trying to get other parties to pay even more of the cost than they already are.

The Port of Vancouver has been the unsung lead agency in all of this, as they took responsibility for planning the underpasses as part of the West Vancouver Freight Access Project (WVFAP). Once complete, there will be two "rough openings" in the BNSF railroad berm, but they will be far from usable in that form. The current run is about who will pay to turn those rough openings into finished underpasses, and at what cost.

To put my problems with Boise in perspective, I have monitored the progress of the new development at the site of the old Evergreen Airport up here in Cascade Park. the City of Vancouver has paid out no tax dollars for this Project at all, because the development is not eligible, and tax money is not needed in order to make the Project viable.

In fact, the Evergreen Airport project was recently scaled back severely and the significant condominium portion was pretty much eliminated all together because of the collapse of the condo markets. Construction on the retail portions of the project are getting underway as soon as the Contractor finishes the demolition of the old hangars.

Notice I said the Contractor is performing the demolition, NOT the City of Vancouver; a significant difference between Evergreen and Boise.

If the project at the site of the former Boise Cascade mill is such a hot idea, then Gramor Development would not need so much "investment" of tax money to make the project viable.

Neither would there be so much whining coming from the City of Vancouver and the project offices, about what evil bastards the BNSF railroad is because they won't pick up more of the tab.

Another talking point that is emergin seems to be "blame BNSF for the wounds they are inflicting on Vancouver", and "How horrible it is that BNSF is cutting us off from our waterfront".

It should be of no surprize to anyone that any railroad guards their right of way jealously, and that the only thing the railroads care about is not interfering with all of those trains running on schedule.

BNSF worked with the Port of Vancouver on the WVFAP, because it was in the railroad's interests to remove the blockage at the Vancouver junction. Access to the Boise site was a secondary consideration, and the railroad has no financial responsibility for those new underpasses at all.

Again, none of this should be a surprise to anyone, and badmouthing the railroad is less than productive.

If the City of Vancouver is so absolutely convinced that this project is the way for the City to go, then they should stop beating around the bush pursuing rumored grants that will likley never materialize in the amounts they need, and put a $100 Million Dollar Bond measure in front of the voters.

I think that is a more realistic amount for what they really need,. Even though the Council will only talk about the underpasses and street reconfigurations right now, once they have access, they will need even more money for the other goodies they will be on the hook for inside of the site.

If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right. Put a up a bond measure and get the money they really need, and if it is voted down as resoundingly as I think it would be, we could finally put this lunacy to rest once and for all.

In the meantime, real development continues in Cascade Park, uninhibited by any "assistance" from City Council...

8)

[Waterbuffalo]

Quotes Chief:

"If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right. Put a up a bond measure and get the money they really need, and if it is voted down as resoundingly as I think it would be, we could finally put this lunacy to rest once and for all."

And you know that never will happen over a bunch of dead bodies. I agree that they will never put it in front of the voters to ask them how they feel or if they will pay for it because it would go down in flames.

That is why they're playing this chicken and egg game with the state LIFT program (did they not just lose this recently? but got Gregiore to give them a token 3 mil?) and federal earmarks?

[DArch1]

Waves to Darch1 (again..) Seems he likes to sit on this thread while you and I are posting..

Come on Darch1 or someone from Gramor? Why are you scared to face your detractors publicly? Why is this project so much shushed in secrecy? Is there some huge conspiracy that I should know about?

If Chief or I have gotten it wrong, step up and prove us wrong instead of sending Royce or the Columbian after us. If this is all about just 1/10 or 1/11 of the amount of the money that he continues to tout to us as the amount of money put in by the private and public sectors to the amount of money gained at the end of it being built like the Hilton. Why cannot Gramor or the smaller investors find someone who has the money privately or a bank-financier who could help with it?

I know of a few banks that could direct you to someone who might be able to help you find that type of capital but I would also think you would have to pay landshark prices to get it. Just looking at the economy and the Federal Savings bank prices they're having to pay for buying notes and currency from the federal reserve is going up and up.

Ok, come on and speak, or forever hold your breath from us.

I will gladly meet with you two for a cup of coffee or a beer...how about 3pm for that beer Chief.

[DArch1]

Waves to Darch1 (again..) Seems he likes to sit on this thread while you and I are posting..

Come on Darch1 or someone from Gramor? Why are you scared to face your detractors publicly? Why is this project so much shushed in secrecy? Is there some huge conspiracy that I should know about?

If Chief or I have gotten it wrong, step up and prove us wrong instead of sending Royce or the Columbian after us. If this is all about just 1/10 or 1/11 of the amount of the money that he continues to tout to us as the amount of money put in by the private and public sectors to the amount of money gained at the end of it being built like the Hilton. Why cannot Gramor or the smaller investors find someone who has the money privately or a bank-financier who could help with it?

I know of a few banks that could direct you to someone who might be able to help you find that type of capital but I would also think you would have to pay landshark prices to get it. Just looking at the economy and the Federal Savings bank prices they're having to pay for buying notes and currency from the federal reserve is going up and up.

Ok, come on and speak, or forever hold your breath from us.

I'm waving back Buff...with only one finger thou...guess which one?lolup

Look you cyber peeping Tom either grow up or grow a pair. What is with this creepy admin "I see you, but can't see me" BS. Nice website you have here, real inviting.

Shall we take the "cyber" gloves off?

[Chief]

I'm waving back Buff...with only one finger thou...guess which one?lolup

Look you cyber peeping Tom either grow up or grow a pair. What is with this creepy admin "I see you, but can't see me" BS. Nice website you have here, real inviting.

Shall we take the "cyber" gloves off?

For your information, this site is privately operated, and privately paid for. No Government funds of any kind go into the production, upkeep or maintenance of this site.

In addition, the owners and operators have every right and responsibility to know who is on this site at any time and what they are doing here. I've had far too many malicious trolls sign up here to simply ignore the Administrative tools we have, and as Webmaster here, I have many.

Instead of whining about the way this site is run and dodging all of the questions, why not try answering any of the hundreds of questions and concerns we have about this project?

For example: There has never been a complete accounting of what Gramor expects the City of Vancouver to pay for. I realize that the City is trying to do this incrementally, but there still has to be an accounting for what has been spent to date, and an estimate of what this will all cost the City in the future.

cewl

[Waterbuffalo]

Why do I feel Darch1 is playing whack-a-mole with us again because his project is flailing in the wind? Remember about three months back when he came in and he was wondering if we had Gramor in our sights again?

Sounds like all he has to do is finger pointing and name calling. Is this the caliber of text he wants to represent himself? Honestly, I'm was hoping and thinking more highly of him.

Let us see what kind of pressure, "real" citizens bring to bear on the city council tonight, because this vote will sink or swim this city for the next two decades for finances and things that want to be done cannot because its all going down a whirlpool to one project.

[DArch1]

Why do I feel Darch1 is playing whack-a-mole with us again because his project is flailing in the wind? Remember about three months back when he came in and he was wondering if we had Gramor in our sights again?

Sounds like all he has to do is finger pointing and name calling. Is this the caliber of text he wants to represent himself? Honestly, I'm was hoping and thinking more highly of him.

Let us see what kind of pressure, "real" citizens bring to bear on the city council tonight, because this vote will sink or swim this city for the next two decades for finances and things that want to be done cannot because its all going down a whirlpool to one project.

Ouch Buff...

Let's start over, my name is DArch1 I like pina-colada's and taking walks in the rain.

...the wack-a-mole thing worries me a little.

It's all good Buff, how's the cooking coming? I experimented on a great sloppy joe recipe the other night with the family. They all survived. :)

[Waterbuffalo]

Quoting himself: "Let us see what kind of pressure, "real" citizens bring to bear on the city council tonight, because this vote will sink or swim this city for the next two decades for finances and things that want to be done cannot because its all going down a whirlpool to one project."

Most of the votes will be coming next week I think after the public hearing.. Next Monday probably will be the best time to come for public testimony.

Oh, by the way, the city councilors will love an email from all of us on what we think of all these taxes, so if your reading all of these tax threads from Chief, why not go over and give them some good criticisms, ideas and thoughts on the subject.

Please do not send one line or emails that are just plain waste of time (to the choir.) Send some thing with some facts, tact and honor, even though you might not feel like it.

And to Darch1, why do you come here and post?

[Chief]

He comes here to post for the same reason he badmouths the railroad, he can't get the answers that he wants from this place so all he can do is be a smartass.

This site is about the only serious opposition to the whole Boise Cascade Project so I'm not surprised to see Gramor operatives out trolling here trying to vent their frustrations.

They were talking about bonding last night WB, but I don't know how much or for how long. All they discussed was raising $2.2 Million between January 1, 2009 and 2013. They are looking at bonding all right, but only as far as they can get with Tax increment financing that they don't have to get a vote on...at least that's the way it appears to me; and please tell me if you think I'm mistaken about this somehow.

Why would you bond for only $2.2 Million for five years, and in this kind of economy?? Someone who understands these things better than I do would have to explain that to me, because right now it doesn't make any sense to even propose doing such a thing...

What I see is Royce Pollard's iron-willed determination to do make that project happen "any Goddam way that it takes"....

Like I said, I'd really like to hear some discussion on this whole subject because it is rapidly sliding right out of control. All City Council has to do is take the barrage next Monday night when all of this gets a second reading and a Public Hearing. One more vote and these people believe they are home free, and it is increasingly looking like they are.

Tim Leavitt went silent on his blog months ago, and Larry Smith has been ignoring me ever since he figured out that I really wasn't going to run against him...

I am not pleased with what is going on here, and once again I seem to be the odd man out. Maybe I'm just the only one brave enough to run the BS flag up the pole...

In any case, Mayor Pollard was talking again last night about putting 10,000 people down there at that site, and that is such an enormous fantasy and so far removed from what the City of Vancouver can afford to do down there it is hard to express.

Even DArch1 will tell you that it will be years, if not a decade at least before anybody actually lives down there. What Pollard was saying last night and what Gramor Development & Co. will actually do are light-years apart; and both of them are light-years detached from what the taxpayers in this City are willing to support.

cewl

[DArch1]

He comes here to post for the same reason he badmouths the railroad, he can't get the answers that he wants from this place so all he can do is be a smartass.

This site is about the only serious opposition to the whole Boise Cascade Project so I'm not surprised to see Gramor operatives out trolling here trying to vent their frustrations.

They were talking about bonding last night WB, but I don't know how much or for how long. All they discussed was raising $2.2 Million between January 1, 2009 and 2013. They are looking at bonding all right, but only as far as they can get with Tax increment financing that they don't have to get a vote on...at least that's the way it appears to me; and please tell me if you think I'm mistaken about this somehow.

Why would you bond for only $2.2 Million for five years, and in this kind of economy?? Someone who understands these things better than I do would have to explain that to me, because right now it doesn't make any sense to even propose doing such a thing...

What I see is Royce Pollard's iron-willed determination to do make that project happen "any Goddam way that it takes"....

Like I said, I'd really like to hear some discussion on this whole subject because it is rapidly sliding right out of control. All City Council has to do is take the barrage next Monday night when all of this gets a second reading and a Public Hearing. One more vote and these people believe they are home free, and it is increasingly looking like they are.

Tim Leavitt went silent on his blog months ago, and Larry Smith has been ignoring me ever since he figured out that I really wasn't going to run against him...

I am not pleased with what is going on here, and once again I seem to be the odd man out. Maybe I'm just the only one brave enough to run the BS flag up the pole...

In any case, Mayor Pollard was talking again last night about putting 10,000 people down there at that site, and that is such an enormous fantasy and so far removed from what the City of Vancouver can afford to do down there it is hard to express.

Even DArch1 will tell you that it will be years, if not a decade at least before anybody actually lives down there. What Pollard was saying last night and what Gramor Development & Co. will actually do are light-years apart; and both of them are light-years detached from what the taxpayers in this City are willing to support.

cewl

I like the railroad, I just do not agree with their tactics...the same way you disagree with mine. I am here to help you with information the best I can...and to add a little humor, albeit at your expense most of the time.

I feel I have helped you with:

flood zones, site elevations
rail elevation and noise
phasing
VCCV subarea plan (you did not even know it existed)
Tax Incremental Financing (still googling that one Chief?)
LID
Offering an opposing opinion in the great free country of ours.
Encouragement for taking on a blog site...tough work and it is appreciated.

Try as you might to get under my skin Chief I still respect your opinion and what you do on this website. You do not get to where I am in my profession by not having thick skin and compassion for all views.

I am here because to design for a community you need to understand ALL aspects of that community, all views, all visions, all dreams and all fears. At the end of the day, what we do here is not for us but for our children and our children's children...I know that is a bit of a cliche, but that is where my heart is. You and I are in common in that we want what is best for Vancouver.

I would hope that you and Buff would see the potential of your website for people of all opinions to come and respectfully debate the merits of issues affecting this community. Believe me it is tough to allow someone with a different opinion into your house...I happen to feel we as a people can only make progress when we look at both sides.

[DArch1]

Even DArch1 will tell you that it will be years, if not a decade at least before anybody actually lives down there. What Pollard was saying last night and what Gramor Development & Co. will actually do are light-years apart; and both of them are light-years detached from what the taxpayers in this City are willing to support.

cewl

Probably somewhere 2011-12 for occupancy, that's been published. Takes some time to site prep, grade, put in the infrastructure and permit/build the buildings.

Best case scenario under ideal conditions, it took my team 2.5 years to bring on a building in Seattle...and the site was ready to go.

You really want to be planning and building in a somewhat down economy and ready to rock when it's up. It's tough to have financial vision when things are tight.

Believe me, if the Port and City where constructing the portals and underpasses in an up economy...they would be spending a heck of a lot more money. This is the only time to do this...we will NEVER get a second chance at it.

[Chief]

Updating...

Here is part of the response I got back from Lloyd Tyler, CFO of the City of Vancouver, in response to a series of questions about the budget that I posed to City Council.

2. I understand that the $450,000 annual diversion sunsets in 2013, but do the Bonds sunset then as well?? Will they be completely paid off?? If not, then how long will the Bonds run, and who will be making the payments on them and how??

The city will issue bonds for a 20 year period. Before the city issues bonds, a separate Council action is required to support the debt issuance. The bonds will not be completely paid off in five years, however, the project is anticipated to generate sufficient revenue, mainly in sales tax, property tax and real estate taxes from the developed area to support the annual debt support payment. As you have heard during the budget workshop, the city will attach minimum densities to the land via a development agreement, to insure the development occurs consistent with the Vancouver City Center Vision.

So what we have here is in fact a blatant attempt by the City of Vancouver to issue 20 year Bonds, without any real public discussion of that fact much less a vote up or down by the people whose money is really being invested here.

This is the same damned game that Council is playing with the 10-year tax abatements!! Abatements are part of the deal with the Columbia Waterfront LLC development, but those will take "separate council action" as well!

If you read between the lines in the rest of the response Lloyd Tyler sent me, it's clear that there will be other phases that City Council will be asked to approve separately, but next Monday will set the stage...

Arch, this fantasy still hinges on a bunch of condominiums selling within the first five years of this development, because council clearly expects at least $450,000 worth of bond payments off of those sales.

You still need to prove that you can find anchor tenants for your retail portion who are willing to build down there and hope to God someone decides to come buy something, anything at their little store.

What happens when none of your businesses end up generating anywhere near the sales tax revenue that the City is clearly expecting?? Hell, they couldn't even send enough business to the Indoor Farmers Market to keep it afloat, even when all the city workers were still Downtown...

I'm calling foul on this, because the City is clearly trying to hide what they really want to do here, and they want to do it without the knowledge or the permission of the voters who will ultimately have to pay the bill. There was no discussion of 20 year bonds, and even if there were it makes no sense for the City to issue these bonds and expect the bill to be paid in five years by the revenues generated by this development.

Five years?? It will take that long for the housing markets to recover. What do you think the asking price is going to be for these units Arch?? How much do they have to sell for in order to provide any return to the rest of the investors??

[Waterbuffalo]

Shall we also add that Safeway up on 39th street up my way is planning remodeling?
(They even have trash bins outside they're store right now.)

And there is a Fred Meyer just to the east that would pull most of the shoppers out of that area for groceries and many other things?

Some thing is starting to smell and I hear "Fantasy Land" beating in the back of my brain?

[DArch1]

Updating...

Here is part of the response I got back from Lloyd Tyler, CFO of the City of Vancouver, in response to a series of questions about the budget that I posed to City Council.

2. I understand that the $450,000 annual diversion sunsets in 2013, but do the Bonds sunset then as well?? Will they be completely paid off?? If not, then how long will the Bonds run, and who will be making the payments on them and how??

The city will issue bonds for a 20 year period. Before the city issues bonds, a separate Council action is required to support the debt issuance. The bonds will not be completely paid off in five years, however, the project is anticipated to generate sufficient revenue, mainly in sales tax, property tax and real estate taxes from the developed area to support the annual debt support payment. As you have heard during the budget workshop, the city will attach minimum densities to the land via a development agreement, to insure the development occurs consistent with the Vancouver City Center Vision.

So what we have here is in fact a blatant attempt by the City of Vancouver to issue 20 year Bonds, without any real public discussion of that fact much less a vote up or down by the people whose money is really being invested here.

This is the same damned game that Council is playing with the 10-year tax abatements!! Abatements are part of the deal with the Columbia Waterfront LLC development, but those will take "separate council action" as well!

If you read between the lines in the rest of the response Lloyd Tyler sent me, it's clear that there will be other phases that City Council will be asked to approve separately, but next Monday will set the stage...

Arch, this fantasy still hinges on a bunch of condominiums selling within the first five years of this development, because council clearly expects at least $450,000 worth of bond payments off of those sales.

You still need to prove that you can find anchor tenants for your retail portion who are willing to build down there and hope to God someone decides to come buy something, anything at their little store.

What happens when none of your businesses end up generating anywhere near the sales tax revenue that the City is clearly expecting?? Hell, they couldn't even send enough business to the Indoor Farmers Market to keep it afloat, even when all the city workers were still Downtown...

I'm calling foul on this, because the City is clearly trying to hide what they really want to do here, and they want to do it without the knowledge or the permission of the voters who will ultimately have to pay the bill. There was no discussion of 20 year bonds, and even if there were it makes no sense for the City to issue these bonds and expect the bill to be paid in five years by the revenues generated by this development.

Five years?? It will take that long for the housing markets to recover. What do you think the asking price is going to be for these units Arch?? How much do they have to sell for in order to provide any return to the rest of the investors??

Heif,
How much retail do you suppose is going in down there? An anchor like a Fred M is about 160k...I would sure hope that is not the type of retail going in down there. For me, retail near the water needs to be fun and entertaining...maybe some food, or even that martini bar "shakers"...I still think you and Buff should get in on that. Well Heif, market drives a lot of the decisions. I think the last thing anyone wants it to create something that detracts for the revitalization of other parts of Vancouver. I honestly do not know how many units are in phase one or would be sold or for how much...that is being worked out now and will always be somewhat of a moving target. The mix needs to be good for all of Vancouver, and there are a lot of projects that are being planned right now that need to be considered when developing a program for 32 acres. Sorry Heif, that is the best I can do. The in depth numbers is really not my area to be commenting on.

[Chief]

Look Arch, my over-riding concern in all of this is just how much money I am going to be required to cough up to cover this project. The money that the City spends originates from me and many others just like me, and we have an absolute right to have a say in where that money is spent.

The only beef I have with Columbia Waterfront LLC, Gramor Development, et al; is that the City of Vancouver is in fact forcing me as a taxpayer to invest in that property. They are not consulting me or my fellow taxpayers, rather we are being told that this is the best thing for us and not to get overly worried about any of the details.

The City of Vancouver has been operating like this for years, and especially under Mayor Royce Pollard.

You are correct in that you have nothing to do with the money issues here. This is a matter for City Council

cewl