Drawing a new downtown...

[Chief]

http://columbian.com/news/localNews/2008/02/02242008_Drawing-a-new-downtown.cfm

Sunday, February 24, 2008
By CAMI JONER and JULIA ANDERSON, Columbian staff writer

Want a glimpse of the future? Imagine the silhouette of downtown Vancouver redefined by a surge of new shoreline development where urban dwellers live and visitors linger.

Construction is expected to start in 2010 on the 32-acre former Boise Cascade industrial property, just downriver from the Interstate 5 Bridge. The project, being led by Gramor Development of Tualatin, Ore., is expected to bring a mix of mid-rise condominiums, offices, boutiques and restaurants to the site worth between $900 million and $1.2 billion.

The Boise project, however, is only one component of a powerful second wave of downtown redevelopment. Twelve additional projects worth another $375 million are earmarked for sites in a 150-block downtown radius over the next three years.

**SCHNIPP**

I just finished reading this propaganda piece for tomorrow's columbian and it's all I could do to keep from hurling on my laptop! My blood pressure just spiked a few more points and that's never good this late at night.

Go read this piece, and then we can talk. The bottom line is that they are verifying all of the doubts we've had about this whole project from the start. There is no congestion Downtown, so let's go build some!! We can justify all kinds of crap once we stuff 3000 Condos down there...

Keep in mind that the columbian and Scott Peterson are heavily invested in all of this so it is no surprize that the paper would run a puff piece like this.

I need to go cool off...


>:(

[Waterbuffalo]

Deleted past comments..

Well it looks like we have a fine and dandy spate of hand don't we Chief? So now what are you going to do about it?

Who is Scott Peterson?

Puff pieces get me all warn inside.. <evil grin...>

[Waterbuffalo]

So where is Karma's ROW boat? I think I'm just about ready to move on shall I say?

[Chief]

I mean Scott Campbell...(note to self, don't post while drinking heavily...) and he's the Publisher of the Columbian of course...

What kills me is the accompanying map in the morning paper showing all of the keen new projects that are planned for Downtown, all with the stated goals of creating up to 30,000 additional trips a day into and out of Vancouver, where there is no conjestion right now. It appears to me, (and Thayer Rohrbaugh confirms it with his comments) that Boise is the first of a whole set of cards that have to be played in order to build a "New Pearl District" for Vantucky.

In the same newspaper is a long article about how fine dining doesn't have a prayer here in town, and every restaurant that has tried it has either failed outright (Bacchus) or has had to modify their menu significantly. Cinetopia went from serving Kobe beef to hamburgers...

What does that tell you about Vancouver?? Who in hell is going to come downtown for all that fanacy dining they keep telling me they want to build down there?? Does anyone believe that Ester Short Commons residents are going to go dine in Vancouver's Pearl District on a regular basis?? They couldn't even keep the Indoor Farmer's Market going fer crissake!!

Where is the market for two more hotels on that site?? Most of what goes on at the Hilton are events that are sponsored by the City oer somoe other Government agency here locally. It's not like we have the Shriners calling weekly to see if they can book their annual converntion.

Again, the columbian and other business interests here in town are heavily invested in this, so don't buy into all of the platitudes about "our waterfront" that you hear coming from these people.

Getting the underpasses designed is the first building block in a process that will ultimately cost the City of Vancouver (and the residents who pay the taxes) millions of dollars that the City does not have. I keep hearing how the Feds and the State are going to bail this project out, but obviously who ever says that is seriously behind on current events, because neither Washington has any spare change at the moment, and it doesn't look like they will any time soon, either.

All of you libs out there who love Barak Obama so much and plan to vote for him this fall need to realize that paying for your dreams of development downtown ain't on his list. As much as you think the Federal Government can pay for all of this simply by withdrawing from Iraq, that's not going to happen either.

And we haven't even mentioned the Columbia Crossing Project yet either.

Keep in mind that there will be a 5-7 year long construction windo on the CRCP which will cut Downtown Vancouver off from I-5 and SR-14 for an extended period of time. Just who is going to be creating those increased trips into Downtown, and how will they get there??

This is a classic case of incrementalism. If they can create 30,000 new trips into and out of Dwontown, they think they can justify all kinds of transit projects to support it; light rail and streetcars come directly to mind.

The problem the City has is coming up with the money they need to make this happen, and it's becoming more and more obvious that the current Council is going hell-bent ahead with al of their plans.

Be sure to read the whole article WB.

>:(

[Chief]

And about that drawing the columbian ran this morning...

It clearly shows the BNSF Railroad descending into a trench under the entrances to the Boise Cascade site, which effectively eliminates the entire barrier that the existing trestle presents to the property....

Remember what the purpose of those underpasses are that the City is paying to plan??...

Typical Journalistic malpractice on behalf of the columbian.

[karma]

I will ask this again, why did Portland grow faster than this side of the River? Lewis and Clark selected this area not Portland for their camp, hence the Fort of Vancouver. But Portland grew and is the envy of this side of the river, why? After seeing this article this morning, history is trying to repeat itself and again dead horse comes to mind. More later when my stomach can handle this?

[Chief]

Here's a scan of the front page this morning, and you can clearly see the railroad shown descending into a trench behind the property.

There is no sign of the West Vancouver Freight Access Project's impact on the site either.


The scale and scope of the Columbia River Crossing looks like it's shown in the existing footprint of the bridge. That ain't so either...

Lie after lie after le...


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v645/SeniorChieftain/2008-02-24-0907-03_edited.jpg

[Chief]

OBTW...

Don't you know that the eruption from CAVE is actively brewing as you read this....??

Stand by...

::)

[karma]

I saw the drawing and the first thing that came to mind was where are the train tracks?
Whom would want to live down there, trains and plane noise?? Isn't the industrial area really close and isn't that a mess?? Then there is the flood issue and insurance for this?
But again we have some folks in this area that don't think with a brain?? I just love how low the planes come in at this area?? Why not turn this area into industrial and move the City to higher ground?? Don't they have a water issue with pouring cement in this area too?

[Chief]

Here's a mind bug for you: Out of all of those potential construction projects in and around Downtown Vancouver that were listed in this article today, how many of them will survive if light rail gets shot down in flames??

[tefen]

I swear that entire article is an exact reproduction of one that I read quite a while ago...

Thanks to Google, I've found where: http://www.thecolumbianb2b.com/novdec2007/downtown-vancouver.cfm

Oh, and the trench. Chief, I believe it was about a year ago that I said they would either propose trenching that railroad underground, or re-routing the rail traffic onto the Chelatchie railroad and connecting that back to the main line somewhere out around Camas.

Man, I should be a bettin' man.

[Chief]

There is no flipping way that the main railroad line can or will be trenched down like that. If you understand anything about trains, you know that changes of altitude on trackage take place over long distances. It's simply not possible to do what they are showing, nor is it part of the active planning that is currently going on.

Look again at their drawing of the Columbia Crossing! They are showing one deck above the other, and we know that ain't so!

That drawing bears almost no resemblance to reality whatsoever, so I fail to see what it is that you would bet on...

[tefen]

So they'll just have to start the trench further back?

Maybe it's good I didn't bet anyone.

That CRC bridge might be passing over the Quay there. It's hard to tell, but you're right, it does look stacked. Anyway, it says it's drawn by Gramor. It's likely just their wish, and probably does differ a lot from what will happen, at least with regards to the things they can't control.

[Waterbuffalo]

Chief, Remember my comments about trenching off the CRC near the Killian Pacific?

What would happen if those trains were trenched just like the overpass thing near K-P?

How many want to guess ALL of that train noise going in AND out of the Port of Vancouver with Unit Trains is going to be EVEN more noise than those trains are creating now, even IF they silence the train whistles?

One has to remember that that new trackage is being built not just for new connections but so that the trains can be MOVED in and out without having to cross the North/south tracks.

Wonder how they're going to get around that under neath the railroad bridge thing Chief has talked about the Port is going to do.. It will BE below water level and its going to be right on the western edge of this development. Why do I feel a flood plain in many senses of the word coming on even in ODD weather conditions that are not near 100 year flood.

Darn, I'm getting a sinking feeling coming on..

[Chief]

Let's get this straight: Those train trestles are NOT, repeat NOT going to be trenched the way that drawing shows. BNSF would never allow such a thing because it would be next to impossible for any number of locomotives to pull a loaded freight train through that dip in the right of way. It is not possible to do it in the space allowed.

The City of Vancouver does not have the authority to make a change like that to the mainlines of BNSF. BNSF agreed to allow the City to excavate under the existing bern, as long as it does not disrupt service.

At the West Vancouver Freight Access Project Open House a couple of weeks ago, they had the preliminary plans for all of this on display, and trust me, there are no plans to trench the mainline railroad tracks like that.

[Waterbuffalo]

Now we can also just remember these are "Draft" and "Conceptual" drawing that some one came up with to show what is possible in that area.

Until June or July when the very first 30 percent drawings and many other details do come out, we're only looking at a artists rendering of what is possible. Am I wrong on those sentiments?

[karma]

It is my understanding all of west downtown is going to be gone when the new I-5 goes in and that is why the empty motel is on the south side of the river. If you really look hard you will see they will need some of the east side of the I-5 now to do this. So if you think opening up the bottle neck on the OR side is going to help, think again! For years (20) this is going to be a big pain in the transportation back side why this move forward and yes, another done deal!

Will we get to vote on LR?? Not unless some folks get this in gear now!

As for the train, come on Chief . . . . . . they allow the Mayor to put in his bridge to no where? We have seen pipes being put in out here without them knowing it or even the County? Pipe Dreams and a waste of money in the down town area. I just loved the one meeting I attended down at the CC Commissioners' 6 floor and the plane went over, no one could hear a thing. So again why beat that dead horse and move DownTown out of there??

Leave that area for industrial needs? The Columbian is so polluted and if folks were smart they wouldn't buy into that pipe dream. But again it's the Leadership that is screwed up? I'm tired of paying for the attitude of build it and they will come, which costs us all in the long run. See Dick run when he finds out what is really going on?

[DArch1]

Now we can also just remember these are "Draft" and "Conceptual" drawing that some one came up with to show what is possible in that area.

Until June or July when the very first 30 percent drawings and many other details do come out, we're only looking at a artists rendering of what is possible. Am I wrong on those sentiments?

You are correct. I'm sure the Columbian had to dust this drawing off to use it.

[Waterbuffalo]

Are you saying its been laying in a dust bin for years waiting to pop out? :-D

[DArch1]

Nope.;)

[Chief]

That drawing was very deliberately used on Sunday, and I think it speaks volumes that it has not yet appeared on their website.

Keep in mind that the columbian Inc., has a number of shareholders who are heavily invested in all of this Downtown development, (and without sounding like some sort of half-assed tin-foil hat conspiracy theorist), I believe they will do whatever they have to in order to make this "second wave" of Downtown development happen.

Why do you think the new columbian building was built where it is?? It's there because Campbell and Co. think they built on the future brand new corner of Pork & Beans in a reinvented Downtown America's the 'Couv.

In addition, those same people don't want anyone to realize just what an impact the West Vancouver Freight Access project will have on that site until it's way too late. Gramor Development and the City have soft-shoed the Port of Vancouver's substantial participation in this project from the very start, with the very willing participation of the columbian. At the ground-breaking last year for the Freight Project, Royce Pollard barely mentioned anything other than his "new City", and Gramor provided a colorful arch of balloons to mark the location of the new Ester Street underpass.

From the original article:

“It’s all interrelated in a sense,” Rorabaugh said.

Yes Thayer, you're goddam right it is! It's all related because it's a house of cards that is being constructed down there. You are deliberately designing horrible congestion where none exists, simply to justify any number of expensive Public Works projects from this crackpot development at Boise Cascade, to hundreds of Millions worth of Bike and Ped access on the Columbia Crossing (where virtually none exists right now).

Thayer has been key to the creation of this so-called "MOS" or "Minimal Operating Segment" for the Loot Rail portion of the Columbia Crossing, because he finally got it through his skull that Vancouver residents will not pay $50 Million a year to operate Trimet's trains. He obviously hasn't got the Memo yet, that we taxpayers are not going to vote to fund his MOS at $3.5 Million a year either... If the MOS is the best he can come up with, then it is simply not worth doing.

What Thayer Rohrbaugh doesn't get though, is that nobody in Vancouver with two brain cells left to rub together is going to vote to fund any portion of the Boise Cascade site, or Light Rail, or probably the entire CRCP now, given the way that entire fiasco has been handled to date.

In short, "Know thy enemy"...and that includes the local media downtown. They are blatant and obvious in their spin attempts at the columbian, but you can't ignore them either...

[Waterbuffalo]

After Chief spoke with me tonight, I had to shake my head and wonder. HE showed me how they thought the BNSF or whom ever would have to dig into the dirt and get under the 14.8 ft. Federal highway mandate to get the trains under neath any cross over member or road improvement that might come over above the trains.

Two questions, 1) What is the railroad minimum heighth ANY bridge must be above, so that trains will be able to get under them? I'm talking trains with double decker cargo containers must be able to under them on their way to Chicago? 2) Weren't they proposing to dig whole under neath the trains Chief to allow passage through?

IF they do ANY digging underneath the current level of dirt in the site now, what would happen IF the water table rise?

Chief, would those trains areas you were describing to me have the same problem as the west vancouver freight under the old train tressel across the river? I mean if your going to dig deep into that Columbia River water table, would that area be a flood and water table problem?

Isn't there an expert on the PoV staff that could tell us what the highest water table level near the bridge has been? There are a lot of port projects near that area, there must be some one over there that might know the answer to my question??

Chief, thanks for the laugh out loud and fun! :-) Hope to see you more into the future at community events that are going to get me showed, surprised and even MORE lunacy than the Cave-in gatherings..

[tefen]

A vertical clearance of 7.1 meters above the top of rails, which
includes an allowance for future ballasting of the railroad tracks, may
be approved. Vertical clearance greater than 7.1 meters may be approved
when the State regulatory agency having jurisdiction over such matters
requires a vertical clearance in excess of 7.1 meters or on a site by
site basis where justified by the railroad to the satisfaction of the
SHA and the FHWA.

http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/14mar20010800/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2002/aprqtr/23cfr646.220.htm

I doubt they have to allow for the highest the water table can rise. They just need to allow for the highest it will rise 98% of the time or something. I'm fairly certain that the railroad will survive being submerged and then exposed again after the disaster is over.

[Chief]

WB, the 14'8" height clearance I was talking about was between the bottom of the railroad trestle, and the surface of the pavement underneath it.

Again, the streets are going to be dug under the railroad tracks, NOT the other way around.

Again, grade changes on railroad tracks take place over miles of track and occur very gradually. It is simply impossible to trench the tracks in like that stupid, ill-begotten and wildly incorrect drawing shows.

Pay that drawing no mind! I put it up because it is wrong!! It is physically impossible to do what that drawing suggests and any Engineer can tell you the same thing.

::)

[Waterbuffalo]

So your saying the tracks are going to be NICE AND HIGH up in the air? So that any person who has a condominium on the first through three floors is going to get a Birds EYE view of them loading into cars into the Port? Darn where's the front row Seat?? <grin..>

I bet there would be a HUGE Lottery of Railroad fans that just WOULD LOVE to get to see all of the trains coming in and OUT of the Port! <being silly..>

But this brings up a new THOUGHT? With the old steamer trains coming by ever once in a while to Vancouver, would this area be a good place to look at them coming over into the Portland trestle?

[tefen]

Chief,

I though WB's point was that the CRC bridge is going to have to be pretty high to get over the existing trestle.

We hear a lot of talk about enough clearance over the water, but not over the trestle....

Not really the topic for this thread though.

[Chief]

Tefen, you're right that both clearances apply, the the number you gave is the height of obstructions over the rails, and I'm talking about clearance underneath the trestles and the pavement below.

Yes WB, the raised trestles that exist right now down there will stay at their present elevations, and the West Vancouver Freight Access Project's new trestly will come off of the existing trestle just before Ester Street, and swoop down and toward the river so it can pass underneath the railroad bridge and into the Port.

Again, if you want to know more about this, make arrangements down at the port to view the drawings they have on this. The Port of Vancouver is actively working on this project and will be more than happy to accomodate a request for information.

[karma]

So if they bury them won't they have the same water problems we saw with some of the buildings being built down town?

[Waterbuffalo]

Chief: you make a valid point. Should go down to the port to understand the drawings..

Though I still love my tongue-in-cheek comments about the higher than air railroad for all of Vancouver and Gramor to see.

Chief, could the those trail section become a new Disney attraction?

Karma, I think you and I should should take Chief's point. Make an appointment, go down to the Port and look over their plans for the West Vancouver Freight thingy..

[Chief]

I am told that the drawing the columbian chose to run with last Sunday was a conceptual sketch make by Zimmer Gunsel Frasca over in Portland some 2-3 years ago, because that is the only thing they could apparently get their hands on.

Too bad the columbian has no use for the Port of Vancouver, because they have some fairly good preliminary drawings of those underpasses in and amongst the drawings for the West Vancouver Freight Access Project. If the columbian were to show the slightest interest in the Port, they might be surprized at what they find out about the Boise Site and railroads...

All this kind of irresponsible "journalism" does is feed the cynicism of people like me who are on the hunt for any scrap of information that there is...and when people like me see things like the columbian chose to run on the front page last Sunday, I won't hesitate to holler "bullshit" and call them on it.

That kind of story only feeds the already widespread ignorance about this project, and gives us even more reason to be suspicious of the entire thing. I see lots of responsible and very productive development taking place all around me up on this end of town, not downtwon where there is absolutely nothing going on. I guarantee that you could drive around downtown right now, and hardly catch a red light or any traffic. Up here in Cascade Park there is plenty of traffic and commercial activity going on until fairly late in the evening.

If the City wants to assist some Development, let's get the old Evergreen Airport Project up and running. We can damn sure use the jobs and the tax revenues...

8)

[karma]

First get your Rand McNally Road Map out and tell me what you see on the West Transportation out of the port??

[Waterbuffalo]

"If the City wants to assist some Development, let's get the old Evergreen Airport Project up and running. We can damn sure use the jobs and the tax revenues...

Here here! How about put a performing arts Center there? lots of open land and would be on the drag strip along I-205. Can some one tell me where all the open land is in Clark County? East side. Where is most of the new businesses opening? East Side/Camas/Battle Ground.

Where is the City of Vancouver putting it annexation efforts? East Side/North East Side.

Where has most of the transportation efforts of the City of Vancouver been for the past 15 years including Mill Plain? East side...

So from my karma like test, it seems the East side of Vancouver could use that new Performing arts center right over here. Where there is a lot of land to build in on a grand scale, lots of new PEOPLE, JOBS, infrastructure and things being built.

Why are we focusing some much work in downtown?

[Chief]

First get your Rand McNally Road Map out and tell me what you see on the West Transportation out of the port??

karma, the Westbound traffic out of the Port will be mostly on the rails, via the West Vancovuer Freight Access Project. The Port is trying to become even more rail dependant than it is now, and reduce the number of trucks in and out as much as possible.

But no matter how much you don't like it, there will always be truck traffic in and out of the Port; there is no way around it.

And putting in a bridge over to the Port of Portland is not an option either, so don't bother going there either...

::)

[karma]

Chief, I will say it again! The 'Mill Pain Extension' was built for the truck traffic in and out of the Port and to say this is the only route that they will take is crap!! We know they want to extend the roadways out of the port through the west side of Fruit Valley and then out 78, 99 and Felida so heads up folks!! But again are these roadways read for the added truck traffic?? I can just see these trucks having to climb the hills of this area and how pissed some of these residents are going to get.

Remember I had that nice lady that visited from the Port and I listened, but again they can't always relie on the Rails and with the slides there is always going to be a need for truckers! It's a toss up if the residents get wind of their neighborhood streets are going to have to deal with the truck traffic or not? Many of these roadways are not up to date to deal with this kind of traffic either, why?? I can just see a Sat. when we have all those so called bike out on Lake Shore Ave and it's filled with trucks too!! No one is really looking at the over all picture, it's just piece meal pipe dreams?

[Chief]

Again, the Port is trying to minimize the number of trucks in and out, but it is a hard fact that there will always be some truck traffic in and out of the Port of Vancouver.

In addition, the Port of Vancouver has absolutely no statuatory authority whatsoever to impose traffic restrictions on any streets in or out of the Port District. Maybe the County could help you with that complaint if you can put together a well documented case, but until then, I would look for trucks to continue to use those routes.

8)

[Waterbuffalo]

I'm going to bite my tongue on this issue of truck traffic out of the port. We have reams of threads and bullet points on the subject. All I can say is lets move on? Its a dead horse continuing to be beaten.....

[Chief]

I'm going to bite my tongue on this issue of truck traffic out of the port. We have reams of threads and bullet points on the subject. All I can say is lets move on? Its a dead horse continuing to be beaten.....

I agree completely. I get tired of repeating myself over and over again, like I never said anything in the first place.

[Waterbuffalo]

Any new news on this subject. Just read the local newspaper's account and watched Royce's comments on the state of the city 2008 address.

Not much else to report than what has been posted on the thread. Did I miss some thing?